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	The point was that the Mormon church owns an interest in Pepsico, and therefore approves of drinking Pepsi. I consider it hypocritical to make moral decisions on an economic basis. But that's just me ...             -Shadowjack
	Alida, No problem, was not being critical; I think we have all responded to phantom posts (some of us more than once!) < The Mormons do not allow caffiene in their dietary rules. I like many of their teachings. They are smart and practical.> They are also hypocritical, like everyone else. Coffee and Coca-Cola are bad, but Pepsi-Cola is OK since the church owns a large interest in Pepsico!             -Shadowjack
	< No personal attacks, please, Ryan. It's in the FAQS. Why do you hate? Please explain. Nancy, how do you know people did not have it before? What is so special about society today? The small and middle farms are disappearing and our food is getting more contaminated. -Alida Cornelius > Ryan isn't here, Alida. He is a figment of GC's imagination -- old messages from the queue being repeated. Click on Newest Messages ...             -Shadowjack
	3) Nauseatingly rich man who wanted to convince poor men that his money was of no value so they would leave more for him?             -Shadowjack
	Liar Liar pants on Fire!!! The size DOES Matter!!! -Melissa Oh, dear! You mean I have been lied to for decades? I wwonder why? ....             -Shadowjack
	It's not how big it is, it's how you use it!             -Shadowjack
	G'night, Karen. As usual, it's been fun.             -Shadowjack
	Red, iwhy not suggest a topic instead of criticizing what you find here? I think some of us are BECOMING friends by talking about this crap. See the good-anonymous'es post about others having valuable insights.             -Shadowjack
	That's the trap we are all in: How do we survive without paychecks long enough to set the world right?             -Shadowjack
	You must mean the weaklings. With a billion Indians and over 5 billion Chinese, we're already the minority...             -Shadowjack
	< Shadowjack...I like your observation...I'm an angel that has lost his path. In retaliation, i deceive GOD's greatest accomplishment. Man Kind. But i really mean no harm -Lucifer > Like Babylon, Lucifer is fallen. But Choice is the gift and the weapon of God, and it would be of no value were you not here to offer alternate uses for it. While Shaitan, the Evil One, is destined for the Lake of Fire, You in your Christ form, may well be redeemed.             -Shadowjack
	Lights are handy things to have in the darkness, Karen. Like H8Ter Dude, Lucifer will bring more people to the Light than he will carry inro the darkness. There's a plan for everything, if we can only see it.             -Shadowjack
	The only mention of Lucifer in the Bible is in the book of Isaiah (Chapter 14) where the King of Babylon is called Lucifer, the bright and morning star. (Means "light-bringer" in Latin. All the devil stuff is Christian mythology, equating him with Satan. But Christ was also called the daystar and the bright and morning star. So is this guy really Lucy, or Satan, or Christ?             -Shadowjack
	Some of us get pretty noisy about our desperation. ;)             -Shadowjack
	Mike, Where are you? The way the map displays on my computer, you're just a beacon in the darkness. Wait, that's kind of cool. Maybe we should just leave it at that.             -Shadowjack
	Thank you, Karen. When you are angry, it is easy to make preposterous claims before you think. There is only one Bible, and its pretty damn difficult to forget more than all of it. Then there is mahabarata, bhagavid gita, koran, tao-te-ching, and others. Not that I have memorized any significant part of them, but I have read and pondered all of them. I've been on this quest a long time. H8Ter forgets that I told him I have been where he is!             -Shadowjack
	< I mean, the ONLY talk about condom usage in AIDS-torn Africa will be from a Christian group telling the Africans NOT TO USE THEM!? That's intentional and it's NOT moral. - IGNORE THIS ! ~> I agree with your sentiment, but I am not quite sure the statement is honest. "The only talk" from churches, possibly -- and that is sinful. But there are other volunteer groups from the US trying to introduce/increase condom use, and more than one country has seen that as an attempt at genocide.             -Shadowjack
	Sorry, dude, I'm one of the ones that knows his scriptures AND what most of them mean. I also know that if you are going to talk the talk you have to walk the walk. Part of that is that you have to own the whole package. I can't pick and choose my verses, and then tell you not to. But I CAN explain a lot of what they don't teach in the churches (not all of it, yet). Watching the televangelists pisses me off a lot more than you do, because they are supposed to teach the truth.             -Shadowjack
	Karen, you are not going to like this, but I cannot refute the statements IGNORE is making now because they are true! He will surely get to "I am come to set a fire upon the earth, and what care I if it be already kindled!" unless I beat him to it. These do not change the basic goodness of the doctrine Jesus taught -- they are more prophetic than threatening or commanding. But showing that takes more than a few thousand characters. Will do it if IGNORE wants it, not a cop out. But LENGTHY.             -Shadowjack
	We are all learning and growing. Those who aren't are dead. If by opposing lies with the truth, and diatribe with logic, one could cause a hater to stop for a moment and learn something new then one would have truly raised the dead.             -Shadowjack
	Karen, I have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that you are in any way inferior to me or anyone else on GC. I have strong points and weak ones. This morning I gave offense to Tony and Rebecca when there was no need or justification, and this afternoon I ran off at the keyboard for far too long. At least I didn't blow this one too bad!             -Shadowjack
	< you've not yet resopded to this haterdude. is there a reason why not? -karen > Hmmm! I thought that was a response... He claimed that Jesus ordered the killing of infidels who would not receive him, and I put the words back in their original context to show that he was wrong. Are you suggesting that I should assume he knowingly lied and rip into him, instead of giving him the benefit of assuming that he is merely ignorant and correcting him civilly? "Forgive him, for he knows not."             -Shadowjack
	< Jesus himself orders the immediate public slaying of infidels -IGNORE THIS! > Luke 19:27 is the last line of the story Jesus is telling. Jesus spoke the words, how else could he tell the story? But they belong to the hard man who withdrew what he did not deposit and reaped what he did not sow. If you are going to attack people of faith, you should pay more attention to what their faith actually says.             -Shadowjack
	The foregoing is only a rough first attempt at developing this concept, that flowed out here and now at the keyboard. The idea is to take full advantage of the strengths of both sexes and provide checks and balances to prevent domination of society by either sex. To honor both the Father And the Mother. I know that there are probably holes in this idea big enough to drive a Ford Excursion through. I offer it as a framework, kicking off from Phoenix's post. Does it make any sense at all?             -Shadowjack
	Whomever was elected as Chief Justice would be replaced among the lesser Justices by a person of the same sex appointed by the appropriate house. Impeachment would be similar to today's system, but with a twist. It would be accomplished by a 2/3 majority in both houses OR a unanimous vote of either house.             -Shadowjack
	The cabinet Secretaries would be appointed by the legislature rather than the President. The female Secretaries by the female house and the male Secretaries by the male house. The houses would have the authority to recall at any time any Secretary appointed by the OTHER house, and demand that the other house appoint a replacement. The Judiciary (Supreme Court) would consist of 6 male justices and 6 female justices. They would elect a Chief Justice from among their number.             -Shadowjack
	The Executive branch would be primarily male, as it now is, but with all cabinet positions filled by both a man AND a woman so that the President could receive the benefit of advice from BOTH aspects of the divine principle on any question in any area. The function of Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces would be transferred to the dual Secretaries of Defense (or whatever title they were given) and deployment of the Forces into combat would require the approval of both Secretaries.             -Shadowjack
	Sandra > Agree on the apple (almost). But the whole thing is an allegory. Adam is Mankind by definition from the Hebrew. Eve as a name is an English affectation that I do not know the origin of (help?). Her Hebrew name was Chavaa, meaning life. Adam's rib was removed to give access to his heart, so that Man would love Life. After his eyes were opened to the possibilities of both Good and Evil, he hid from the Lord GOD because he knew he was naked: that his agenda was clearly visible to God. He chose Evil.             -Shadowjack
	In this bi-cameral, sexually divided legislature ALL legislation would originate in the female house. A bill would have to pass both houses to become law. Thus, women would have the say about where they wanted society to go, and men would be able to veto the tasks they considered to impractical (or which we were too lazy to do). But no matter how much a man wanted to pump oil out of the Alaskan wilderness or go to war with Iraq, he could not originate legislation to do so.             -Shadowjack
	Don't forget, Phoenix, that man fell from Grace because of that fruit! And believe it or not, that is another religious arguement for placing women in a subordinate position. But those who believe that forget that Eve gave the fruit to "her husband there with her" who must have heard the whole discussion with the serpent and could have (and should have) put a stop to things at any point -- but did not. The fruit was from the Tree of Knowledge of Good AND Evil.             -Shadowjack
	Rather than trying so hard to make everybody equal, where equal means identical, I think that we need to put more effort into understanding and celebrating our differences. Then, modifying our governing system to take advantage of each groups strengths and counter one another's weaknesses. A different take on a system of checks and balances. So: A legislative house of elected female representatives voted for by women, a second house of male representatives voted for by men.             -Shadowjack
	There have been many attempts to establish and maintain theocratic societies, which oriented people would expect to be superior to secular governments. But, tragically, they have all failed after becoming far crueller than secular societies ever could be. I believe this is because they all become dominated by men, whose main concern is always to enforce the Law of their LORD or GOD. Men forget to moderate their governance with the Mother's LOVE, indeed do not know how to do so.             -Shadowjack
	Man (meaning the human race) was formed in the image and likeness of God. For centuries, sexist males have used this as an excuse for male domination, claiming that men were formed in His image, while women were merely formed from the rib of a man. But what if Men are *intended* to reflect the image of the LORD, while women reflect the image of GOD? In that case, the entire structure of Judaeo-Christian society is a perversion of original divine intent because we honor the Father but not the Mother.             -Shadowjack
	Even the older Judaeo-Christian texts from the first century AD refer to a female aspect of God. The Book of Proverbs speaks of Wisdom as a personalized being who was present at the Creation, and she is female. Yet both the Jews and the Christian church have suppressed these references, calling them goddess worship and heresey. Suppose, however, that God does have a distinct female aspect.             -Shadowjack
	Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long in the land that the LORD thy God giveth thee. We were all taught that this means our human parents, but I have come to believe that it refers to our Father and our Mother: the LORD (YHWH in Hebrew) and GOD (elohim in Hebrew), seen as male and female aspects of what we call God (or Yin and Yang). All of the most ancient philosophies extol both a male and a female principle -- there must be a reason for it.             -Shadowjack
	Think this one through carefully, Phoenix, and keep it coming. You may be on to something.             -Shadowjack
	Well, it might help if you changed your nick. I understand the "Publius" concept, and we are all anonymous really because Brad doesn't want PII on the board. But something to distinguish you from all the other "Anonymous"es would get you taken more seriously.             -Shadowjack
	I never realized that Anonymous was an Iraqi name! But, seriously, the tactics you advocate require mass participation behind a leader. This is a community of free thinkers, most of whom are offended if they even think someone is trying to tell them to do something. If you can overcome that with 80 characters, have at it.             -Shadowjack
	< It is illegal to incur war to depose a foreign power. -Sandra > As I said, I'll give you unethical and immoral, deceitful, and add dirty rotten scoundrel apparently conspiring to overthrow constitutional government and giving our nation a black eye all over the world. In my opinion, V E R Y bad judgement because he has involved us in our first overtly aggressive war since destroying the indian nations and confirmed muslim opinion of us. But what law on whose books makes that illegal?             -Shadowjack
	< Then Bush will continue involvement in Iraq, regarless of the fact that this began illegally? -Sandra > Why do you say that the Iraq incursion was illegal? Unethical and immoral for sure, and congressional support obtained by deceit, but illegal? As I remember there was a UN resolution being totally ignored, and Bush lied to Congress but they approved his action... What did I miss?             -Shadowjack
	< How does one fall asleep? I can't go it; chronic insomnia. Any words of wisdom or techniques out there? -Rebecca > Somewhat mundane, but try eating turkey and/or drinking warm milk. It is a chemical solution, but naturally metabolized chemicals.             -Shadowjack
	Tony, Sounds as though you have your head on straight, even if you are a trifle touchy. ;) So I'll admit that I could have expressed myself in a less confrontational manner and apologize for giving offense. I have a sister who insists that pot is harmless, and she'll physically attack you for disagreeing unless she has had a joint recently; the next day she won't remember doing it. So I have seen what long-term over-use can do, and I guess I am sensitive about it. Again, sorry.             -Shadowjack
	< God created weed for a reason and I don't think that reason was to just sit in the ground or be confiscated by the DEA and then destroyed or smoked anyway. -Rebecca > Remember this post, Tony? All I did was state a contrary opinion. Is using God as an authority only allowed when He agrees with you?             -Shadowjack
	Than you for prayers, Rebecca, and your statement is fundamentally correct. Let's just agree that alchohol, pot, and many other substances work by dulling our perceptions, suppressing our inhibitions. A little, to relax or dull pain, is not an evil thing. But intentionally becoming so disoriented that we fall down in our own vomit, or so aggressive as to physically attack others, or so somnolent as to respond to "FIRE" with "Say whuut?" does not do justice to the God within us.             -Shadowjack
	Than you for prayers, Rebecca, and your statement is fundamentally correct. Let's just agree that alchohol, pot, and many other substances work by dulling our perceptions, suppressing our inhibitions. A little, to relax or dull pain, is not an evil thing. But intentionally becoming so disoriented that we fall down in our own vomit, or so aggressive as to physically attack others, or so somnolent as to respond to "FIRE" with "Say whuut?" does not do justice to the God within us.             -Shadowjack

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	The point was that the Mormon church owns an interest in Pepsico, and therefore approves of drinking Pepsi. I consider it hypocritical to make moral decisions on an economic basis. But that's just me ...             -Shadowjack
	Alida, No problem, was not being critical; I think we have all responded to phantom posts (some of us more than once!) < The Mormons do not allow caffiene in their dietary rules. I like many of their teachings. They are smart and practical.> They are also hypocritical, like everyone else. Coffee and Coca-Cola are bad, but Pepsi-Cola is OK since the church owns a large interest in Pepsico!             -Shadowjack
	< No personal attacks, please, Ryan. It's in the FAQS. Why do you hate? Please explain. Nancy, how do you know people did not have it before? What is so special about society today? The small and middle farms are disappearing and our food is getting more contaminated. -Alida Cornelius > Ryan isn't here, Alida. He is a figment of GC's imagination -- old messages from the queue being repeated. Click on Newest Messages ...             -Shadowjack
	3) Nauseatingly rich man who wanted to convince poor men that his money was of no value so they would leave more for him?             -Shadowjack
	Liar Liar pants on Fire!!! The size DOES Matter!!! -Melissa Oh, dear! You mean I have been lied to for decades? I wwonder why? ....             -Shadowjack
	It's not how big it is, it's how you use it!             -Shadowjack
	G'night, Karen. As usual, it's been fun.             -Shadowjack
	Red, iwhy not suggest a topic instead of criticizing what you find here? I think some of us are BECOMING friends by talking about this crap. See the good-anonymous'es post about others having valuable insights.             -Shadowjack
	That's the trap we are all in: How do we survive without paychecks long enough to set the world right?             -Shadowjack
	You must mean the weaklings. With a billion Indians and over 5 billion Chinese, we're already the minority...             -Shadowjack
	< Shadowjack...I like your observation...I'm an angel that has lost his path. In retaliation, i deceive GOD's greatest accomplishment. Man Kind. But i really mean no harm -Lucifer > Like Babylon, Lucifer is fallen. But Choice is the gift and the weapon of God, and it would be of no value were you not here to offer alternate uses for it. While Shaitan, the Evil One, is destined for the Lake of Fire, You in your Christ form, may well be redeemed.             -Shadowjack
	Lights are handy things to have in the darkness, Karen. Like H8Ter Dude, Lucifer will bring more people to the Light than he will carry inro the darkness. There's a plan for everything, if we can only see it.             -Shadowjack
	The only mention of Lucifer in the Bible is in the book of Isaiah (Chapter 14) where the King of Babylon is called Lucifer, the bright and morning star. (Means "light-bringer" in Latin. All the devil stuff is Christian mythology, equating him with Satan. But Christ was also called the daystar and the bright and morning star. So is this guy really Lucy, or Satan, or Christ?             -Shadowjack
	Some of us get pretty noisy about our desperation. ;)             -Shadowjack
	Mike, Where are you? The way the map displays on my computer, you're just a beacon in the darkness. Wait, that's kind of cool. Maybe we should just leave it at that.             -Shadowjack
	Thank you, Karen. When you are angry, it is easy to make preposterous claims before you think. There is only one Bible, and its pretty damn difficult to forget more than all of it. Then there is mahabarata, bhagavid gita, koran, tao-te-ching, and others. Not that I have memorized any significant part of them, but I have read and pondered all of them. I've been on this quest a long time. H8Ter forgets that I told him I have been where he is!             -Shadowjack
	< I mean, the ONLY talk about condom usage in AIDS-torn Africa will be from a Christian group telling the Africans NOT TO USE THEM!? That's intentional and it's NOT moral. - IGNORE THIS ! ~> I agree with your sentiment, but I am not quite sure the statement is honest. "The only talk" from churches, possibly -- and that is sinful. But there are other volunteer groups from the US trying to introduce/increase condom use, and more than one country has seen that as an attempt at genocide.             -Shadowjack
	Sorry, dude, I'm one of the ones that knows his scriptures AND what most of them mean. I also know that if you are going to talk the talk you have to walk the walk. Part of that is that you have to own the whole package. I can't pick and choose my verses, and then tell you not to. But I CAN explain a lot of what they don't teach in the churches (not all of it, yet). Watching the televangelists pisses me off a lot more than you do, because they are supposed to teach the truth.             -Shadowjack
	Karen, you are not going to like this, but I cannot refute the statements IGNORE is making now because they are true! He will surely get to "I am come to set a fire upon the earth, and what care I if it be already kindled!" unless I beat him to it. These do not change the basic goodness of the doctrine Jesus taught -- they are more prophetic than threatening or commanding. But showing that takes more than a few thousand characters. Will do it if IGNORE wants it, not a cop out. But LENGTHY.             -Shadowjack
	We are all learning and growing. Those who aren't are dead. If by opposing lies with the truth, and diatribe with logic, one could cause a hater to stop for a moment and learn something new then one would have truly raised the dead.             -Shadowjack
	Karen, I have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that you are in any way inferior to me or anyone else on GC. I have strong points and weak ones. This morning I gave offense to Tony and Rebecca when there was no need or justification, and this afternoon I ran off at the keyboard for far too long. At least I didn't blow this one too bad!             -Shadowjack
	< you've not yet resopded to this haterdude. is there a reason why not? -karen > Hmmm! I thought that was a response... He claimed that Jesus ordered the killing of infidels who would not receive him, and I put the words back in their original context to show that he was wrong. Are you suggesting that I should assume he knowingly lied and rip into him, instead of giving him the benefit of assuming that he is merely ignorant and correcting him civilly? "Forgive him, for he knows not."             -Shadowjack